My friend worked as an aide while in college, but she is now finished & has her degree. She says she is working as a substitute teacher until she finds a full-time job. I see no reason why she'd lie about that or about how much/little they pay her. Besides, I didn't ask her about the pay. In the course of conversation, she just up & told me. You don't have to believe it if you don't want to. I believe it because, after discovering how little most of the LMTA piano teachers & TTU secretaries make, it just doesn't surprise me. I think that even $8 an hour is too low for someone with a college degree, even if s/he is just starting her/his career (as my friend is).

IMO, some college degrees are worthless. I've lost count of all the people I know who have college degrees but are working as secretaries or whatever because they can't find work in their fields. And, I repeat, there are ways to continue one's education without going to college. If you want to learn for the sake of learning, there are less expensive ways of going about it (such as on-the-job training, etc.).

There's nothing more pathetic, IMO, than a person with a college degree who can't support him/herself & has to mooch off (sometimes live with) Mom &/or Dad to make ends meet.

[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: Jalapeņo ]

Whether or not an adult has a degree has little to do with mooching. Anyone can earn an income and live proportionately. Mooching children are a result of something different than the sellability of their degree. I think often the parent encourages the mooching, intentionally or not. (another of my pet peeves!)

Lilla,
I've enjoyed your comments regarding these issues.

I agree. However, if a parent doesn't stress to his/her children the importance of getting a college degree that will increase his/her income potential, then the parent is (perhaps unintentionally) encouraging mooching. Unless, of course, the parents drive home the point (as Dr. Pepper & I do with our children) to the children that when they graduate from high school, they are to either go to college or go to work. We encourage them to pursue a college degree that will enable them to support themselves (i.e., not be financially dependent on us or on the government). And yes, everyone should live within their income. How many people do that, though? A lot of people are up to their earlobes in debt.

And while philosophically I have a difficult time understanding why a college degree is considered necessary for just about any occupation that pays a halfway decent wage, the reality is that there are few respectable jobs nowadays (by respectable, I mean jobs that pay enough for you to live on your own & support yourself) that don't require college degrees. The secretarial position that I held for 11 years is a case in point. When I applied for that job, all that was required was a high school diploma & good typing skills (you had to take a typing test). Now, for that very same position, they require a B.S. degree & good computer skills. I learned my computer skills on the job. I guess nowadays they're not willing to let people learn on the job. Or maybe a high school diploma isn't what it used to be. Dr. Pepper says that a high school diploma doesn't tell him anything about a person. A person can possess a high school diploma, but not even know how to read & write.

[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: Jalapeņo ]

It's all about choices and priorities. I know of several people who choose to live at a certain income level so that they don't have to pay any federal income tax at all. They live simply. They choose to live where the rent is cheap, they share their living space, they don't own a car (they bike or use public transportation). They choose a healthful diet and eschew what many of us consider necessary forms of entertainment.

Living without debt is, for many of us, a choice. Currently, the only debt we carry is our mortgage (a 15-year that will be paid off 9 years from now), our van and a 12-month loan we took for termite treatment to our house. We have no credit card debt. We put our card away and use it only for travel and emergencies, if necessary.

Mind you, we are not wealthy. Our income bracket is considered lower middle class. I have to admit that sometimes I am envious of people who have larger homes in a more prestigious part of town. But then, our mortage will be paid off when I am 47. They are locked into 30-year mortgages to afford their homes.

My husband and I make choices based on what is most important to us; giving charitably, using less of the world's resources, saving for retirement, college and emergencies. We try to do the best with what God has given us; remember the parable of the talents.

Now, many people don't have a choice. They must live within meager means. But consider the story of some friends of ours. They took a second 20-year mortgage on their home to pay of $20K in credit card debt. And they used their cards indiscriminately when they were visiting us. Apparently they hadn't learned their lesson. I don't have much sympathy for them.

We are constantly told in America that we have to have it all. It's not true, and the pursuit of it will leave you ragged and unhappy.

[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: Arlene Steffen ]

Wow!! Have we ever strayed from the topic at hand!
I am certainly enjoying this discussion wondering where it will lead next.
Oh, and Lilla, I wasn't in the least bit offended, I knew exactly where you were coming from and wholeheartedly agree. I know we have to have regulations on who teaches our children in the public school system, but I'm just not convinced that the current requirements and making it harder to get certified is the answer. My favorite quote from a college I am looking into: "It doesn't matter where you get your knowlege."

Thanks for the replies. Just want to chime in on another note - I have worked fulltime (outside of teaching) since I was 21 and I can tell you that how much you make has absolutely nothing to do with a college degree. I often made far more as a secretary than the snooty college kids. I have held other excellent upper management positions that I earned thru dedicated, hard work. Jalapeno, you are absolutely right about learning anywhere. There is still room for self-taught people. But having recently lost my job at my "advanced" age, I can tell you that today's personnel directors are doing a great disservice to the workfield by disregarding anyone without a degree. I have been out of work for over a year, except for temp, and thank goodness, for piano teaching. I have reached the point where I think it makes sense to expand my studio, and consider myself retired from the office field. They don't want me! Sob! Too old, too poorly educated, too unskilled (after 30 years experience?), too, too, too!!! (just some venting of my own)

Yes, Lilla, personnel directors are doing a great disservice by disregarding those without degrees. But the personnel directors are the ones who decide who gets the jobs, not you & I. So as long as they look for people with degrees, I'd be doing my kids a disservice by not trying to prepare them for the real world. Part of that preparation, IMO, involves telling them they'll stand a much better chance of getting a good-paying job if they go to college. Of course, we also tell them that a college degree is just a starting point. Hard work & dependability count, too. In the end, hard work & dependability count more than possession of a degree; but they'll need a degree just to get their foot in the door.

Back on topic: Good piano teachers keep striving to improve both their performance & their teaching abilities. They never stop learning. They're not satisfied doing less than their very best. Neither are good students, for that matter.

All the homeschool parents I know (mine included) got High School diplomas. That's not to say that some didn't, but everyone that I know did. (And several earned college degrees as well) They learned the exact same things that we need to know now. Some parents put their children in the Public/Private schools once they reach High School, while others teach all the way through. (Like mine are)
We have Math, Science, English, (etc.) books, just like other kids do. Sometimes, if a parent doesn't feel capable of teaching a particular subject, usually a friend will, and can tutor or help out when needed. (Such as a homeschool dad, also our dentist, offered to help me out in Algebra, should I need it.)
My math program even includes a 1-800 number, so that if I ever don't understand anything, I can call, and talk to the writer, and he will walk me through the problems. My math program is on videos, so I actually have another 'teacher' other than my mom.

That's how it works. I'd be glad to answer any more questions, if you have any.

MM (who has an 8th grader got a really good score on her ACT 2 mos. ago)

I homeschooled my boys through 8th grade. I do happen to have a teaching degree, but many of my homeschooling friends don't. Most of the homeschooled kids I know do extremely well on standardized tests and also excel if and when they begin to attend "regular" school. My boys went to high school at a private school with tough standards and adjusted very well.

Most parents who choose to homeschool take their responsibility very seriously and do a wonderful job. I've known parents who "swapped" subjects and others who studied to learn more about a subject in which they felt weak. One of the main purposes of education is to guide a student in being able to find answers for himself, teaching him HOW to do reasearch and study. I think that if we don't do that, we do students a disservice.

Anyway, I've encouraged many friends over the years who didn't have degrees to home school and they've all done a fabulous job. I've also worked in schools and seen many teachers with degrees do a dismal one.